Curse

Mr None · Feb 13, 2008, 07:11 AM // 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Please no blanket statements. Why would you even consider DSlash or 3Chop for PvP?

Of course I meant PvE, you don't seriously think I was suggesting that build for PvP?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Also your skill-bar is pretty damn energy heavy, unless you're running a zealous and hitting a good amount of enemies each time then...meh.

You're absolutely right - this build works effectively only with zealous axe (which I forgot to mention)

As for the Tripple Chop being 10 sec recharge, - if you're hitting at least 2 enemies, you can say it's already "recharging" twice as fast

blue.rellik · Feb 13, 2008, 12:25 PM // 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

like imperial sanctum? there arent very many areas with 1 foe. in areas with more than 1, triple chop wins

Lol +34 damage every 10 seconds is awesome!

Quote:

because triple chop is better?

Actually you're wrong. 3Chop is only good when you're hitting lots of things, if you're not always hitting lots of things then you're not doing your job properly (which is to kill lots of things quickly at once)

That and you suck at powering out SY!

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

First read the forum description, then try CTRL/F "PVP" on this thread.

Finally try to refrain from obvious Red Herrings and Straw Man statements.

I apologise. I was unaware that I was the only person that posts in all the PvE segments talking about any part of PvP.

Please accept the fact that you do not post here enough to know what on earth is going on.

k?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

Of course I meant PvE, you don't seriously think I was suggesting that build for PvP?

You obviously don't play GW enough nor post here to see the builds that some warriors run.

Quote:

You're absolutely right - this build works effectively only with zealous axe (which I forgot to mention)

As for the Tripple Chop being 10 sec recharge, - if you're hitting at least 2 enemies, you can say it's already "recharging" twice as fast

The whole point of 3Chop is to hit lots of things at once, if you're not then you've just gimped your elite. +34 damage every 10 seconds is pretty damn crappy if you're talking like that

LightningHell · Feb 13, 2008, 12:31 PM // 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

You obviously don't play GW enough nor post here to see the builds that some warriors run.

To Mr None, who the quoted sentence is targeted to; don't take Rellik's sentence the wrong way. I think he means it in a good sense

Furthermore:

Quote:

Finally try to refrain from obvious Red Herrings and Straw Man statements.

As far as I know, there have been no logical fallacies in this thread. All I see wrong with the thread is that you're trying to start a minor flamefest.

Mr None · Feb 13, 2008, 12:56 PM // 12:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LightningHell

To Mr None, who the quoted sentence is targeted to; don't take Rellik's sentence the wrong way. I think he means it in a good sense

Yeah, I am also not sure what what Mr blue.rellik actually meant^^

I played enough to complete every single quest in guild wars, every single elite mission for the HoM statue, legendary guardian / protector / vanguisher, 29 titles maxed, played axes, swords, hammers, been there done that..

As for this forum, i've been reading it for 2 years and I do know what people are running / playing / posting / using... (yes, i've seen meteor shower warriors in RA

) , been reading and posting enough to attract community's attention to Sab's HA Jagged Bones build (yes it all started with my "Sab's build in Action" thread), give birth to Ursanway (yes, ban me from GW for good - If I only had known what would it lead to I wouldn't have ever created "Mallix with your heroes" thread)

As for the "wrong" choice of my elite, rellik, - you're right again, I am too inexperienced and dull to understand that Triple Chop is bad because it has 10s recharge, energy based, multi-targeted, doesn't apply DW and whats more important - not your, good sir, personal choice. Sorry

Crom The Pale · Feb 13, 2008, 02:33 PM // 14:33

I really want to stress how party set up is important when choosing a build for your war.

Triple chop is a great skill when your party is dealing a great deal of AoE dmg or conditions.

If your party is dealing more single target dmg or spike dmg then you want a build that supliments that.

When you try and make a stand alone war build your just going to end up with some gap in your effectiveness or be spread to thin.

As for meteor shower wars in RA I swear I only run that build in PvE.....really!!

Stormlord Alex · Feb 13, 2008, 03:38 PM // 15:38

rellik, while your dedication to Eviscirape is admirable - and from a PvP standpoint, I agree Evis > face...

For a PvE setting, Evis just can't compare (talking about most efficient builds now) - essentially, because it's a single-target attack for a weapon that really ought to be nuking mobs.
If you're in a smaller zone with no big mobs that'd call for TChop, then a DSlasher is a far stronger damage dealer, and the Norn "Finish Him!" makes Eviscerate, sadly, moot.
I could only really justify Evis for when you need single-target damage but are bored of swords.

Trvth Jvstice · Feb 13, 2008, 06:01 PM // 18:01

Disclaimer: I stopped playing GW for about a year and restarted a few weeks ago, I just purchased EotN 2 days ago (all of my characters had mini pets, my Warrior and Monk had their second ones -woo hoo!).

Now my question: Does the numbers in this post still apply? Ensign gave some really high numbers for the Eviscerate/Executioner's strike spike and dps.

Some in this thread have said the Evis has been nerfed and others have said that the health loss with Deep Wound should be ignored. Sure the post I linked to is old, but those are some incredibly high dps numbers shown for the evis/executioners strike, penetrating blow combo. I know that while henching Thunderhead Keep (my fav mission), using that combo drops the Mursaat very quickly. SO, even with those numbers, is Evis spike truly only for PVP?

Dobermann · Feb 13, 2008, 06:05 PM // 18:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

[skill]eviscerate[/skill] [skill]executioner's strike[/skill] ftw

you forgot

[skill]body blow[/skill]

Dobermann · Feb 13, 2008, 06:06 PM // 18:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trvth Jvstice

[skill]eviscerate[/skill] [skill]executioner's strike[/skill] ftw

you forgot

[skill]Body Blow[/skill]

Yukito Kunisaki · Feb 13, 2008, 08:39 PM // 20:39

The ~100 damage deep wound does on after-impact should NEVER be ignored...

It's part of the game mechanic, why ignore it?

On a full health target, it does 100 damage max for a condition AND THE healing detriment of 20% isn't something to shake off either.

Eviscerate + Exe. Strike should do easily 250+ total damage on a target should they both crit and their armor level is below 70.

Triple Chop in PvE is great when you combine Dismember into the mix. You can dismember many foes in succession with the adrenaline build up from Cyclone, Triple Chop, and the like...

If you wanted to very poorly emulate a possible DPS pump with an axe, Keen Chop, Cleave, Dismember, Penetrating Chop is probably your best bet. But ONLY on soft targets. Vs. the high armor ones, Dragon Slash will own all. It owns on soft targets better too but remember, poorly emulate is what I said...

Good lucks to ya...

blue.rellik · Feb 14, 2008, 03:19 AM // 03:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

Yeah, I am also not sure what what Mr blue.rellik actually meant^^

I played enough to complete every single quest in guild wars, every single elite mission for the HoM statue, legendary guardian / protector / vanguisher, 29 titles maxed, played axes, swords, hammers, been there done that..

As for this forum, i've been reading it for 2 years and I do know what people are running / playing / posting / using... (yes, i've seen meteor shower warriors in RA

) , been reading and posting enough to attract community's attention to Sab's HA Jagged Bones build (yes it all started with my "Sab's build in Action" thread), give birth to Ursanway (yes, ban me from GW for good - If I only had known what would it lead to I wouldn't have ever created "Mallix with your heroes" thread)

As for the "wrong" choice of my elite, rellik, - you're right again, I am too inexperienced and dull to understand that Triple Chop is bad because it has 10s recharge, energy based, multi-targeted, doesn't apply DW and whats more important - not your, good sir, personal choice. Sorry

*bangs head against wall*

I wonder when will people read my posts properly without bringing any bias into it.

Quote:

Eviscerate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TChop in the smaller areas

That was my original post in this thread. Nothing more, nothing less. It means what it says and is true. This thread is about axes, and when you're talking about axes and you're in a area where it's very rare to be able to get enemies to stay on you especially in hard mode then 3Chop is really pointless since you are not taking advantage of it's power (ie, the AOE-ness). Thus when you're not reliably hitting more than 2 enemies at a time then the next best solution is to go to powerful single target attacks, and in that vein Eviscerate is king for axes. Yes DSlash is far better shut-down especially since it's the best warrior adrenaline engine in game and powers out constant knock-down but we are talking about axes here.

Did I ever say that 3Chop is worse than Eviscerate anywhere else? Of course not, in most NM areas like Southern Shiverpeaks or the Desolation where you're fighting enemy mobs larger than 3-4 then 3Chop/Earthshaker are more or less the best elites the warrior can bring due to their aoe-ness and I would advocate them entirely. However to say that 3Chop is the best axe elite in all of PvE is just plain wrong, there are areas where it just isn't viable, places where you're fighting smaller groups of solid enemies (like Hell's Precipice or Shiro/Abaddon) then it's just plain idiocy to bring it and claim it's the best.

Of course there are other options like Cleave and maybe gimmicky ones like Whirling Axe + conjure or Decapitate but honestly, Eviscerate is great because of the skill-bar compression, freeing up a slot from Dismember for something like SY or TNTF is certainly worth it.

Trvth Jvstice · Feb 14, 2008, 04:06 AM // 04:06

blue.rellik, you're preaching to the choir bro, the Evis combo kills those SoBs very quickly. I admit a more spammable AoE skill will always be better in lower levels or areas with enemies that attack en masse, but for those areas where they are spread out, Evis combo is the absolute highest spike and dps that I know of. If this humble one is wrong, please feel free to correct me, but please refer to what I say in the context that it was used.

Grammar · Feb 16, 2008, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Once again, the problem with Eviscerate in PvE isn't Eviscerate or Triple Chop, but rather the fact that Dismember exists, as well as the fact that compressed spikes don't matter in PvE.

Think about it.....
Eviscerate costs you 3 more strikes of adrenaline than Dismember, as well as your elite slot, and all you get in return is +29 damage. Eviscerate also gives you a nice skill compression effect (it's basically 2 skills in 1) which makes it great for spikes. But that's meaningless in PvE, where DPS is all that matters.

The fact of the matter is, Dismember + Executioners + [insert elite attack skill here] will give you higher DPS than Eviscerate + Executioners + [insert non-elite attack skill here]. Quite a bit higher, in fact, considering that you'll be deep wounding more foes with Dismember than you could with Eviscerate. Then you have the added AoE damage from Triple Chop on top of that.

I'll even go so far as to say that Dismember out-damages Eviscerate in PvE (at least in NM). For example, if Warrior #1 Dismembers 3 foes, and Warrior #2 Eviscerates 2 foes, Warrior #1 did more damage than Warrior #2 (by roughly 40hp in this scenario). That may be an oversimplification, but you see what I'm getting at.
The only reason to spend your elite slot and the extra 3 adrenaline on Eviscerate over Dismember is for the Eviscerate->Executioners spike that works so well against human players. But the higher DPS you'll get from Dismember + Triple Chop is the better way to go in PvE.

Trvth Jvstice · Feb 16, 2008, 04:53 AM // 04:53

No, Ensign proved the Evis combo gives you the highest dps possible. The only thing axe-wise Evis isn't best at is AoE dmg.

LightningHell · Feb 16, 2008, 07:31 AM // 07:31

I'd venture to say that would be some time ago, and Dismember got buffed as well as Eviscerate got nerfed since then.

Avarre · Feb 16, 2008, 07:41 AM // 07:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr None

been reading and posting enough to attract community's attention to Sab's HA Jagged Bones build (yes it all started with my "Sab's build in Action" thread),

Oh, so you're the one who took a build that was used in HA for over a year and tacked Sab's name onto it, creating a ridiculous reference. Granted I <3 Sab, but it makes me want to bash my head every time I see 'sabway'.

Anyways I don't see why you'd use an axe elite that has a recharge when you can use one that's adrenal and thus subject to group adren buffs? Have I missed something?

Crom The Pale · Feb 16, 2008, 03:25 PM // 15:25

They both work, really that is not in dispute.

As to which is best its impossible to state that as you can never determine how often Tripple chop will strike more than one foe.

Deep wound is great when facing mobs that self heal or have some monk support but for the majority of PvE things just die so fast it hardly seams noticable.

Now that we can add in PvE only skills such as "Finish Him!" dismember/evicerate seam far less effective to me.

LockerLoad · Feb 17, 2008, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Lightning, my intent is not to start a flame war. I'm merely pointing out the obvious to those who lack the ability to divine it for themselves.

Why do you continue to defend Rellik despite his obvious gaucherie? Is he your buddy or is that the job of an admin on this board?

I don't post here very often due to the malice expressed by many of the self professed experts. But when I do my posts are relevent to the topic discussed or in response to anothers reply.

Straw man:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I was unaware that it was illegal to talk about PvP here

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Red Herring:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I mean since it's PvE then why are we even talking about anything other than DSlash?

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

There, I've hilighted the fallacies for you, now on to new business

Aside from being insulting and confrontational can you guess which logical fallacies are concealed within these arguements?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Please accept the fact that you do not post here enough to know what on earth is going on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

You obviously don't play GW enough nor post here to see the builds that some warriors run.

Thes statements aside from their lack of logic are plain insulting.

blue.rellik · Feb 18, 2008, 04:48 AM // 04:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Why do you continue to defend Rellik despite his obvious gaucherie? Is he your buddy or is that the job of an admin on this board?

I don't post here very often due to the malice expressed by many of the self professed experts. But when I do my posts are relevent to the topic discussed or in response to anothers reply.

Straw man:

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Red Herring:

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

There, I've hilighted the fallacies for you, now on to new business

Aside from being insulting and confrontational can you guess which logical fallacies are concealed within these arguements?

Thes statements aside from their lack of logic are plain insulting.

I've bolded the parts that are actually important for my post, why don't you actually try and refute my points?

LightningHell · Feb 18, 2008, 05:26 AM // 05:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Lightning, my intent is not to start a flame war. I'm merely pointing out the obvious to those who lack the ability to divine it for themselves.

Why do you continue to defend Rellik despite his obvious gaucherie? Is he your buddy or is that the job of an admin on this board?

Since you're oh so very inclined to post the oh-so-called fallacies of other users, your 'buddy or abuse of moderation powers' is clearly a case of false dilemma.

And no, I do not particularly like Rellik. I just happen to dislike your condescending attitude and your apparent willingness to drag the topic off its tracks, all wrapped up into a little sentence that can also be considered a flame.

I believe blue.rellik has been somewhat narrowminded during the first part of the thread, when the thread was actually on the topic, in terms of the 'blanket statement' phrase. If I were a newcomer, I would agree with your jurisdiction that talking about PvP here is not necessarily 'right', as this was created as a PvE build forum. However, since there is no place for single PvP builds (or at least until recently), The Campfire hosts discussions for all sorts of casual PvP talk - you posted in ignorance of the current state of matters in the forum. As such, the following statement by Rellik:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Please accept the fact that you do not post here enough to know what on earth is going on.

...Is true, although perhaps somewhat too blunt.

Now, trying to enforce forum rulings isn't a bad thing as of itself, apart from it dragging the thread off topic. However, "You fail." is hardly a good way of convey wnat you would want to say. I daresay you incited the trainwreck that followed.

I don't post here very often due to the malice expressed by many of the self professed experts. But when I do my posts are relevent to the topic discussed or in response to anothers reply.

Quote:

Straw man:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I was unaware that it was illegal to talk about PvP here

The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position.

Pray tell me, how is he commiting a fallacy? The post he quoted was this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

The Campfire
PvE Builds and Discussion
Share your strategies, experience and tips here for builds and groups for PvE.

You fail.

Which has plenty of relevance to the previous post, and he did not distort your position, as your position is that Campfire should be for PvE, or else the above quoted post would not make sense.

Quote:

Red Herring:

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

I mean since it's PvE then why are we even talking about anything other than DSlash?

A Red Herring is a fallacy in which an irrelevant topic is presented in order to divert attention from the original issue. The basic idea is to "win" an argument by leading attention away from the argument and to another topic.

He is merely stating that if he would be talking about PvE, then he believes that Dragon Slash is the best option. This may have been an attempt to lead attention away if he already was commiting a fallacy; however, he has not, and all I see here is you trying to frame somebody for something they didn't do.

Quote:

There, I've hilighted the fallacies for you, now on to new business

Aside from being insulting and confrontational can you guess which logical fallacies are concealed within these arguements?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

Please accept the fact that you do not post here enough to know what on earth is going on.

There is an element of ad hominem here; however, his premise and purpose of the post is also perfectly clear to a reader. He should have phrased it as so to say that the Campfire is not a purely PvE forum now, instead of trying to get away with a short sentence, since he needs to point out...

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

the obvious to those who lack the ability to divine it for themselves

...Right?

Quote:

Originally Posted by blue.rellik

You obviously don't play GW enough nor post here to see the builds that some warriors run.

I believe the premise of his statement was in a humorous manner; i.e. "You obviously don't play GW enough nor post here to see the builds like Hamstorm and Meteor Shower warriors, along with a dash of Mending wammos".

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

Thes statements aside from their lack of logic are plain insulting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LockerLoad

You fail.

"Insulting", you say...

BACK TO THE DISCUSSION PLEASE.